Determining the Spell DC of a spell cast via StaffCan you use a stave with the use magic device skill?Can...

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Determining the Spell DC of a spell cast via Staff


Can you use a stave with the use magic device skill?Can magic items that deal fire damage function underwater?Determining the caster level for magic weapons?Does the Staff of the Magi absorb AoE spells?Can a character use spell slots from one class to activate a Runestaff spell that's on the spell list of another of their classes?Are there spells that simply cannot be used to create spell-trigger items such as wands or staves?Can you use a magic wand or staff with your Haste action?Must a magic item's spells/spell effects all have the same CL, and be priced accordingly?Can a intelligent, legendary item use it's own spell like powers like a normal intelligent item can?Does Protection from Evil protect against the Staff of the Forgotten One?When casting a Runestaff spell from the spell list of one class, but using a spell slot from a different class, which caster level do I use?













4












$begingroup$


Rule #1



Excerpt from "Using Staves" [Magic Items -> Staves -> Using Staves][1] says




Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.




Rule #2



Excerpt from "Magic Items" [Magic Items -> Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers][2] says (Emphasis mine)




Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.




Question



I find these contradictory, so how can i determine the Spell DC and / or Caster Level of a spell cast via a staff? Also, since all staves are at least 8th CL, wouldn't these be too powerful for low-level chasters? 8 rounds of summon monster I (1 round / level), 8 hours of pass without a trace etc.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$

















    4












    $begingroup$


    Rule #1



    Excerpt from "Using Staves" [Magic Items -> Staves -> Using Staves][1] says




    Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.




    Rule #2



    Excerpt from "Magic Items" [Magic Items -> Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers][2] says (Emphasis mine)




    Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.




    Question



    I find these contradictory, so how can i determine the Spell DC and / or Caster Level of a spell cast via a staff? Also, since all staves are at least 8th CL, wouldn't these be too powerful for low-level chasters? 8 rounds of summon monster I (1 round / level), 8 hours of pass without a trace etc.










    share|improve this question











    $endgroup$















      4












      4








      4





      $begingroup$


      Rule #1



      Excerpt from "Using Staves" [Magic Items -> Staves -> Using Staves][1] says




      Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.




      Rule #2



      Excerpt from "Magic Items" [Magic Items -> Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers][2] says (Emphasis mine)




      Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.




      Question



      I find these contradictory, so how can i determine the Spell DC and / or Caster Level of a spell cast via a staff? Also, since all staves are at least 8th CL, wouldn't these be too powerful for low-level chasters? 8 rounds of summon monster I (1 round / level), 8 hours of pass without a trace etc.










      share|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      Rule #1



      Excerpt from "Using Staves" [Magic Items -> Staves -> Using Staves][1] says




      Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.




      Rule #2



      Excerpt from "Magic Items" [Magic Items -> Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers][2] says (Emphasis mine)




      Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.




      Question



      I find these contradictory, so how can i determine the Spell DC and / or Caster Level of a spell cast via a staff? Also, since all staves are at least 8th CL, wouldn't these be too powerful for low-level chasters? 8 rounds of summon monster I (1 round / level), 8 hours of pass without a trace etc.







      pathfinder spells magic-items






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      edited 13 hours ago









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          2 Answers
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          3












          $begingroup$

          Staves are the exception



          I can see where, in the semantics, this can be a bit confusing. Let me go over caster level first.



          The simplest application of caster level (CL) to a magic items comes with wands and scrolls. Fireball, for instance, does 1d6 per caster level, so a scroll of Fireball with a CL of 5 does 5d6 damage. It doesn't matter if it is in the hands of a 20th level Wizard or a 4th level Barbarian who's trying to use magic device. The same is true for any level-dependent variable in the spell's description.



          Now, as your quoted rules state: staves are an exception to this rule.



          So--
          Rule 1




          the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.




          Rule #2 (altered by me)




          Treat the saving throw of the staff as if the wielder cast the
          spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.




          Spell DC



          The Spell DC and / or Caster Level of a spell cast via a staff is the character's own caster level or spell DC if it is higher.



          Let's take the Staff of Fire (to continue with my fire example). The CL of the Staff of Fire is 8. Now if I were playing a Wizard of level 8 or lower, this is the CL that I would use and so it would cast a fireball for 8d6. If I had a level 11 wizard wielding it, I would then cast a 10d6 fireball.



          Saving Throw



          From Staves (emphasis my own):




          Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. This means that staves are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster.




          So, regardless of whether it was my level 8 Wizard or level 11 Wizard using the Staff of Fire it would be a save DC of: base 10 + 3 for a 3rd-level spell + casting ability score modifier.





          As to your last question: whether the staff would be to powerful for a low-level caster...



          You can Use Magic Device




          Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a
          wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This
          use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular
          spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a
          charge.




          The check would be 20, which for lower level could be quite difficult to attain, certainly there would be a few wasted rounds.






          share|improve this answer










          New contributor




          TigerDM is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Also see this exchange for a good answer on Use Magic Device and Staves: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/95131/…
            $endgroup$
            – TigerDM
            15 hours ago



















          2












          $begingroup$

          It's not contradictory, staves use the wielder stats



          Those two pieces of text are saying the same thing, in different ways. Staves always use the wielder's stats and caster level to define the effects of spells cast from the staff, differently from every other magic item, which use the item's caster level and minimum ability score to cast the spell to define the DCs.



          That means that a summon monster I spell cast from a staff by a 3rd level caster will last 3 rounds, but if cast by a 8th level caster it will last 8 rounds.



          Note that for staves, you must have that spell on your class's spell list and be of high enough level to cast that spell so you can recharge it, otherwise you can use those spells freely. So, if a staff has summon monster I and summon monster IV, for example, a 3rd level caster can use the SM I spell from the staff but SM IV will have the minimum duration of 7 rounds (the minimum CL to cast SM IV). On the other hand, a 8th level caster could use both.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            While this appears accurate, it also seems like a really dumb rule on Pathfinder's part. Forcing the user to use his own worse stats when the stats of the staff would be better runs contrary to the rest of the underlying assumptions of the magic item system and creates breakpoints that sometimes see wands be better deals than staffs.
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            13 hours ago












          • $begingroup$
            Why the stats would be worse than the minimum required to cast the spell? The character will use his stats, and its in their best interest to have high scores on the ability they use to cast spells.
            $endgroup$
            – ShadowKras
            12 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            And yes, wands are for spells of level 1-4, while staves are 5-9 with occasionally having lower level spells as backup tools.
            $endgroup$
            – ShadowKras
            12 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            O, darn you, Pathfinder, there's more to this: On Using Staves says that "the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. (Emphasis mine.) So if it's lower, the wielder can still use the staff's caster level? (Also, where'd you find the bit about the staff's wielder also needing to be high enough level to cast the spell?)
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            12 hours ago












          • $begingroup$
            I was wondering that too. I think the level is not required, but a Use Magic Device check is.
            $endgroup$
            – TigerDM
            10 hours ago











          Your Answer





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          2 Answers
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          $begingroup$

          Staves are the exception



          I can see where, in the semantics, this can be a bit confusing. Let me go over caster level first.



          The simplest application of caster level (CL) to a magic items comes with wands and scrolls. Fireball, for instance, does 1d6 per caster level, so a scroll of Fireball with a CL of 5 does 5d6 damage. It doesn't matter if it is in the hands of a 20th level Wizard or a 4th level Barbarian who's trying to use magic device. The same is true for any level-dependent variable in the spell's description.



          Now, as your quoted rules state: staves are an exception to this rule.



          So--
          Rule 1




          the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.




          Rule #2 (altered by me)




          Treat the saving throw of the staff as if the wielder cast the
          spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.




          Spell DC



          The Spell DC and / or Caster Level of a spell cast via a staff is the character's own caster level or spell DC if it is higher.



          Let's take the Staff of Fire (to continue with my fire example). The CL of the Staff of Fire is 8. Now if I were playing a Wizard of level 8 or lower, this is the CL that I would use and so it would cast a fireball for 8d6. If I had a level 11 wizard wielding it, I would then cast a 10d6 fireball.



          Saving Throw



          From Staves (emphasis my own):




          Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. This means that staves are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster.




          So, regardless of whether it was my level 8 Wizard or level 11 Wizard using the Staff of Fire it would be a save DC of: base 10 + 3 for a 3rd-level spell + casting ability score modifier.





          As to your last question: whether the staff would be to powerful for a low-level caster...



          You can Use Magic Device




          Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a
          wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This
          use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular
          spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a
          charge.




          The check would be 20, which for lower level could be quite difficult to attain, certainly there would be a few wasted rounds.






          share|improve this answer










          New contributor




          TigerDM is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Also see this exchange for a good answer on Use Magic Device and Staves: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/95131/…
            $endgroup$
            – TigerDM
            15 hours ago
















          3












          $begingroup$

          Staves are the exception



          I can see where, in the semantics, this can be a bit confusing. Let me go over caster level first.



          The simplest application of caster level (CL) to a magic items comes with wands and scrolls. Fireball, for instance, does 1d6 per caster level, so a scroll of Fireball with a CL of 5 does 5d6 damage. It doesn't matter if it is in the hands of a 20th level Wizard or a 4th level Barbarian who's trying to use magic device. The same is true for any level-dependent variable in the spell's description.



          Now, as your quoted rules state: staves are an exception to this rule.



          So--
          Rule 1




          the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.




          Rule #2 (altered by me)




          Treat the saving throw of the staff as if the wielder cast the
          spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.




          Spell DC



          The Spell DC and / or Caster Level of a spell cast via a staff is the character's own caster level or spell DC if it is higher.



          Let's take the Staff of Fire (to continue with my fire example). The CL of the Staff of Fire is 8. Now if I were playing a Wizard of level 8 or lower, this is the CL that I would use and so it would cast a fireball for 8d6. If I had a level 11 wizard wielding it, I would then cast a 10d6 fireball.



          Saving Throw



          From Staves (emphasis my own):




          Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. This means that staves are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster.




          So, regardless of whether it was my level 8 Wizard or level 11 Wizard using the Staff of Fire it would be a save DC of: base 10 + 3 for a 3rd-level spell + casting ability score modifier.





          As to your last question: whether the staff would be to powerful for a low-level caster...



          You can Use Magic Device




          Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a
          wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This
          use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular
          spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a
          charge.




          The check would be 20, which for lower level could be quite difficult to attain, certainly there would be a few wasted rounds.






          share|improve this answer










          New contributor




          TigerDM is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            Also see this exchange for a good answer on Use Magic Device and Staves: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/95131/…
            $endgroup$
            – TigerDM
            15 hours ago














          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          Staves are the exception



          I can see where, in the semantics, this can be a bit confusing. Let me go over caster level first.



          The simplest application of caster level (CL) to a magic items comes with wands and scrolls. Fireball, for instance, does 1d6 per caster level, so a scroll of Fireball with a CL of 5 does 5d6 damage. It doesn't matter if it is in the hands of a 20th level Wizard or a 4th level Barbarian who's trying to use magic device. The same is true for any level-dependent variable in the spell's description.



          Now, as your quoted rules state: staves are an exception to this rule.



          So--
          Rule 1




          the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.




          Rule #2 (altered by me)




          Treat the saving throw of the staff as if the wielder cast the
          spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.




          Spell DC



          The Spell DC and / or Caster Level of a spell cast via a staff is the character's own caster level or spell DC if it is higher.



          Let's take the Staff of Fire (to continue with my fire example). The CL of the Staff of Fire is 8. Now if I were playing a Wizard of level 8 or lower, this is the CL that I would use and so it would cast a fireball for 8d6. If I had a level 11 wizard wielding it, I would then cast a 10d6 fireball.



          Saving Throw



          From Staves (emphasis my own):




          Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. This means that staves are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster.




          So, regardless of whether it was my level 8 Wizard or level 11 Wizard using the Staff of Fire it would be a save DC of: base 10 + 3 for a 3rd-level spell + casting ability score modifier.





          As to your last question: whether the staff would be to powerful for a low-level caster...



          You can Use Magic Device




          Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a
          wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This
          use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular
          spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a
          charge.




          The check would be 20, which for lower level could be quite difficult to attain, certainly there would be a few wasted rounds.






          share|improve this answer










          New contributor




          TigerDM is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          $endgroup$



          Staves are the exception



          I can see where, in the semantics, this can be a bit confusing. Let me go over caster level first.



          The simplest application of caster level (CL) to a magic items comes with wands and scrolls. Fireball, for instance, does 1d6 per caster level, so a scroll of Fireball with a CL of 5 does 5d6 damage. It doesn't matter if it is in the hands of a 20th level Wizard or a 4th level Barbarian who's trying to use magic device. The same is true for any level-dependent variable in the spell's description.



          Now, as your quoted rules state: staves are an exception to this rule.



          So--
          Rule 1




          the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.




          Rule #2 (altered by me)




          Treat the saving throw of the staff as if the wielder cast the
          spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.




          Spell DC



          The Spell DC and / or Caster Level of a spell cast via a staff is the character's own caster level or spell DC if it is higher.



          Let's take the Staff of Fire (to continue with my fire example). The CL of the Staff of Fire is 8. Now if I were playing a Wizard of level 8 or lower, this is the CL that I would use and so it would cast a fireball for 8d6. If I had a level 11 wizard wielding it, I would then cast a 10d6 fireball.



          Saving Throw



          From Staves (emphasis my own):




          Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. This means that staves are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster.




          So, regardless of whether it was my level 8 Wizard or level 11 Wizard using the Staff of Fire it would be a save DC of: base 10 + 3 for a 3rd-level spell + casting ability score modifier.





          As to your last question: whether the staff would be to powerful for a low-level caster...



          You can Use Magic Device




          Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a
          wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This
          use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular
          spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a
          charge.




          The check would be 20, which for lower level could be quite difficult to attain, certainly there would be a few wasted rounds.







          share|improve this answer










          New contributor




          TigerDM is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 4 hours ago









          topquark

          3,69511124




          3,69511124






          New contributor




          TigerDM is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          answered 16 hours ago









          TigerDMTigerDM

          43627




          43627




          New contributor




          TigerDM is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.





          New contributor





          TigerDM is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          TigerDM is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.












          • $begingroup$
            Also see this exchange for a good answer on Use Magic Device and Staves: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/95131/…
            $endgroup$
            – TigerDM
            15 hours ago


















          • $begingroup$
            Also see this exchange for a good answer on Use Magic Device and Staves: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/95131/…
            $endgroup$
            – TigerDM
            15 hours ago
















          $begingroup$
          Also see this exchange for a good answer on Use Magic Device and Staves: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/95131/…
          $endgroup$
          – TigerDM
          15 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          Also see this exchange for a good answer on Use Magic Device and Staves: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/95131/…
          $endgroup$
          – TigerDM
          15 hours ago













          2












          $begingroup$

          It's not contradictory, staves use the wielder stats



          Those two pieces of text are saying the same thing, in different ways. Staves always use the wielder's stats and caster level to define the effects of spells cast from the staff, differently from every other magic item, which use the item's caster level and minimum ability score to cast the spell to define the DCs.



          That means that a summon monster I spell cast from a staff by a 3rd level caster will last 3 rounds, but if cast by a 8th level caster it will last 8 rounds.



          Note that for staves, you must have that spell on your class's spell list and be of high enough level to cast that spell so you can recharge it, otherwise you can use those spells freely. So, if a staff has summon monster I and summon monster IV, for example, a 3rd level caster can use the SM I spell from the staff but SM IV will have the minimum duration of 7 rounds (the minimum CL to cast SM IV). On the other hand, a 8th level caster could use both.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            While this appears accurate, it also seems like a really dumb rule on Pathfinder's part. Forcing the user to use his own worse stats when the stats of the staff would be better runs contrary to the rest of the underlying assumptions of the magic item system and creates breakpoints that sometimes see wands be better deals than staffs.
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            13 hours ago












          • $begingroup$
            Why the stats would be worse than the minimum required to cast the spell? The character will use his stats, and its in their best interest to have high scores on the ability they use to cast spells.
            $endgroup$
            – ShadowKras
            12 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            And yes, wands are for spells of level 1-4, while staves are 5-9 with occasionally having lower level spells as backup tools.
            $endgroup$
            – ShadowKras
            12 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            O, darn you, Pathfinder, there's more to this: On Using Staves says that "the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. (Emphasis mine.) So if it's lower, the wielder can still use the staff's caster level? (Also, where'd you find the bit about the staff's wielder also needing to be high enough level to cast the spell?)
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            12 hours ago












          • $begingroup$
            I was wondering that too. I think the level is not required, but a Use Magic Device check is.
            $endgroup$
            – TigerDM
            10 hours ago
















          2












          $begingroup$

          It's not contradictory, staves use the wielder stats



          Those two pieces of text are saying the same thing, in different ways. Staves always use the wielder's stats and caster level to define the effects of spells cast from the staff, differently from every other magic item, which use the item's caster level and minimum ability score to cast the spell to define the DCs.



          That means that a summon monster I spell cast from a staff by a 3rd level caster will last 3 rounds, but if cast by a 8th level caster it will last 8 rounds.



          Note that for staves, you must have that spell on your class's spell list and be of high enough level to cast that spell so you can recharge it, otherwise you can use those spells freely. So, if a staff has summon monster I and summon monster IV, for example, a 3rd level caster can use the SM I spell from the staff but SM IV will have the minimum duration of 7 rounds (the minimum CL to cast SM IV). On the other hand, a 8th level caster could use both.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$













          • $begingroup$
            While this appears accurate, it also seems like a really dumb rule on Pathfinder's part. Forcing the user to use his own worse stats when the stats of the staff would be better runs contrary to the rest of the underlying assumptions of the magic item system and creates breakpoints that sometimes see wands be better deals than staffs.
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            13 hours ago












          • $begingroup$
            Why the stats would be worse than the minimum required to cast the spell? The character will use his stats, and its in their best interest to have high scores on the ability they use to cast spells.
            $endgroup$
            – ShadowKras
            12 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            And yes, wands are for spells of level 1-4, while staves are 5-9 with occasionally having lower level spells as backup tools.
            $endgroup$
            – ShadowKras
            12 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            O, darn you, Pathfinder, there's more to this: On Using Staves says that "the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. (Emphasis mine.) So if it's lower, the wielder can still use the staff's caster level? (Also, where'd you find the bit about the staff's wielder also needing to be high enough level to cast the spell?)
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            12 hours ago












          • $begingroup$
            I was wondering that too. I think the level is not required, but a Use Magic Device check is.
            $endgroup$
            – TigerDM
            10 hours ago














          2












          2








          2





          $begingroup$

          It's not contradictory, staves use the wielder stats



          Those two pieces of text are saying the same thing, in different ways. Staves always use the wielder's stats and caster level to define the effects of spells cast from the staff, differently from every other magic item, which use the item's caster level and minimum ability score to cast the spell to define the DCs.



          That means that a summon monster I spell cast from a staff by a 3rd level caster will last 3 rounds, but if cast by a 8th level caster it will last 8 rounds.



          Note that for staves, you must have that spell on your class's spell list and be of high enough level to cast that spell so you can recharge it, otherwise you can use those spells freely. So, if a staff has summon monster I and summon monster IV, for example, a 3rd level caster can use the SM I spell from the staff but SM IV will have the minimum duration of 7 rounds (the minimum CL to cast SM IV). On the other hand, a 8th level caster could use both.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          It's not contradictory, staves use the wielder stats



          Those two pieces of text are saying the same thing, in different ways. Staves always use the wielder's stats and caster level to define the effects of spells cast from the staff, differently from every other magic item, which use the item's caster level and minimum ability score to cast the spell to define the DCs.



          That means that a summon monster I spell cast from a staff by a 3rd level caster will last 3 rounds, but if cast by a 8th level caster it will last 8 rounds.



          Note that for staves, you must have that spell on your class's spell list and be of high enough level to cast that spell so you can recharge it, otherwise you can use those spells freely. So, if a staff has summon monster I and summon monster IV, for example, a 3rd level caster can use the SM I spell from the staff but SM IV will have the minimum duration of 7 rounds (the minimum CL to cast SM IV). On the other hand, a 8th level caster could use both.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 9 hours ago

























          answered 14 hours ago









          ShadowKrasShadowKras

          50.1k369133




          50.1k369133












          • $begingroup$
            While this appears accurate, it also seems like a really dumb rule on Pathfinder's part. Forcing the user to use his own worse stats when the stats of the staff would be better runs contrary to the rest of the underlying assumptions of the magic item system and creates breakpoints that sometimes see wands be better deals than staffs.
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            13 hours ago












          • $begingroup$
            Why the stats would be worse than the minimum required to cast the spell? The character will use his stats, and its in their best interest to have high scores on the ability they use to cast spells.
            $endgroup$
            – ShadowKras
            12 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            And yes, wands are for spells of level 1-4, while staves are 5-9 with occasionally having lower level spells as backup tools.
            $endgroup$
            – ShadowKras
            12 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            O, darn you, Pathfinder, there's more to this: On Using Staves says that "the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. (Emphasis mine.) So if it's lower, the wielder can still use the staff's caster level? (Also, where'd you find the bit about the staff's wielder also needing to be high enough level to cast the spell?)
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            12 hours ago












          • $begingroup$
            I was wondering that too. I think the level is not required, but a Use Magic Device check is.
            $endgroup$
            – TigerDM
            10 hours ago


















          • $begingroup$
            While this appears accurate, it also seems like a really dumb rule on Pathfinder's part. Forcing the user to use his own worse stats when the stats of the staff would be better runs contrary to the rest of the underlying assumptions of the magic item system and creates breakpoints that sometimes see wands be better deals than staffs.
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            13 hours ago












          • $begingroup$
            Why the stats would be worse than the minimum required to cast the spell? The character will use his stats, and its in their best interest to have high scores on the ability they use to cast spells.
            $endgroup$
            – ShadowKras
            12 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            And yes, wands are for spells of level 1-4, while staves are 5-9 with occasionally having lower level spells as backup tools.
            $endgroup$
            – ShadowKras
            12 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            O, darn you, Pathfinder, there's more to this: On Using Staves says that "the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. (Emphasis mine.) So if it's lower, the wielder can still use the staff's caster level? (Also, where'd you find the bit about the staff's wielder also needing to be high enough level to cast the spell?)
            $endgroup$
            – Hey I Can Chan
            12 hours ago












          • $begingroup$
            I was wondering that too. I think the level is not required, but a Use Magic Device check is.
            $endgroup$
            – TigerDM
            10 hours ago
















          $begingroup$
          While this appears accurate, it also seems like a really dumb rule on Pathfinder's part. Forcing the user to use his own worse stats when the stats of the staff would be better runs contrary to the rest of the underlying assumptions of the magic item system and creates breakpoints that sometimes see wands be better deals than staffs.
          $endgroup$
          – Hey I Can Chan
          13 hours ago






          $begingroup$
          While this appears accurate, it also seems like a really dumb rule on Pathfinder's part. Forcing the user to use his own worse stats when the stats of the staff would be better runs contrary to the rest of the underlying assumptions of the magic item system and creates breakpoints that sometimes see wands be better deals than staffs.
          $endgroup$
          – Hey I Can Chan
          13 hours ago














          $begingroup$
          Why the stats would be worse than the minimum required to cast the spell? The character will use his stats, and its in their best interest to have high scores on the ability they use to cast spells.
          $endgroup$
          – ShadowKras
          12 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          Why the stats would be worse than the minimum required to cast the spell? The character will use his stats, and its in their best interest to have high scores on the ability they use to cast spells.
          $endgroup$
          – ShadowKras
          12 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          And yes, wands are for spells of level 1-4, while staves are 5-9 with occasionally having lower level spells as backup tools.
          $endgroup$
          – ShadowKras
          12 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          And yes, wands are for spells of level 1-4, while staves are 5-9 with occasionally having lower level spells as backup tools.
          $endgroup$
          – ShadowKras
          12 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          O, darn you, Pathfinder, there's more to this: On Using Staves says that "the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. (Emphasis mine.) So if it's lower, the wielder can still use the staff's caster level? (Also, where'd you find the bit about the staff's wielder also needing to be high enough level to cast the spell?)
          $endgroup$
          – Hey I Can Chan
          12 hours ago






          $begingroup$
          O, darn you, Pathfinder, there's more to this: On Using Staves says that "the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. (Emphasis mine.) So if it's lower, the wielder can still use the staff's caster level? (Also, where'd you find the bit about the staff's wielder also needing to be high enough level to cast the spell?)
          $endgroup$
          – Hey I Can Chan
          12 hours ago














          $begingroup$
          I was wondering that too. I think the level is not required, but a Use Magic Device check is.
          $endgroup$
          – TigerDM
          10 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          I was wondering that too. I think the level is not required, but a Use Magic Device check is.
          $endgroup$
          – TigerDM
          10 hours ago


















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